BIOGRAPHY, Relationships
Comments 24

X Part VII

Continuing the transcribed interview with Madame X from PART VI

[tell me about [NAME REDACTED]]

……[NAME REDACTED] was crazy. But you know insanity is an amazingly good distraction. I was…Basil and I had called it off as we did periodically. And [NAME REDACTED] just made all the moves. And, you know, he was attractive and charming and wondering what this crazy man would do next was…well it filled up time. And he was good company on a good day. Nothing much more to say…the press crawled all over the stupid things he did. It was painted very lurid, really it was just ridiculous. He was tinged with farce. Tattooed with it maybe. In big letter…right here.

But…when all that came out [Basil] was mad as hell with me. He was saying “he’s a degenerate, what’s the matter with you.” He was a degenerate. But…I guess I wasn’t being all that rational or together myself by then. It was hard…the situation was so hard. Being detailed off by the man you love to find happiness with some random other man. As if…if I don’t find this happiness I’m failing. Didn’t he see what he was asking of me. I said to him “I can’t just transform into some woman who doesn’t care about you just to make it easier.” Oh we’d fight so much then. So much. We were both going slightly mad with the strain. You know there was no future. He felt terrible for keeping me from having a future. I felt terrible for not being able to be happy with some man who wasn’t him, because I knew if I could…I knew it would…at least it would be an end. We’d break it off for a few hours or days, but…it was too hard. It was too hard to do. So you know it was…on again and off again….

And I was watching him just…fall apart. He was so thin. He barely ate. He was living on nicotine and whiskey a lot of days. His nerves were like bowstrings…You’d put your hand on him and you could feel this…this fine tremor all through him, all the time time. And he..he always got migraine headaches… but round then he..they would be really dreadful…. He’d just have to go to bed in the dark. He’d lose his temper explosively, at nothing. He’d excoriate people…friends, colleagues…just rip them up for nothing. Willie told me…he was very worried about him …he told me he just wasn’t recognizable as the same man at work. He hardly talked or joked. And you know he never lost his humor. He’d always be able to joke – blackly – about whatever mess he was in. So this man sitting alone, lost in his own thoughts…it just wasn’t him.

Six, seven years since I’d first met him…oh God, and this shining, wonderful brilliant man was…he was like a different person……It was awful thing to see. And he was good…he was a good man. He had heart and soul and mind. And…

[you loved him very much]

And respected him and admired him. He was incredibly decent. Incredibly brilliant. I was privileged to know him. Even more privileged to be loved by him.

[how did it end, when finally it did?]

He went east. Put a continent between us. He’d…he’d never wanted to be here in Hollywood, but it was…. The catalyst was us…me. It was desperation, not rationality. He wasn’t rational by then. I mean…he was in debt and walking away from this five-figure weekly pay check because he just couldn’t take any more of anything. I was helping to ruin him. He…he couldn’t go on and he just knew nothing else would end it…. He had no work to go to. But I think he’d rather have been on welfare than stay.

People thought he was losing his mind and they were not wrong. He …he used to say Sherlock Holmes was haunting him…and……and…. He’d say he was cursing him. That he was inside his head. He’d pace up and down and up and down the room like a caged animal, ranting about him. He was…. You know he was…at breaking point. When we were at the beach house he’d go walking, just him and my dog, and I’d think “please God let him come back, please God he doesn’t just…you know walk into the sea.” Id try to communicate to [my dog] to watch him and take care of him. Each time he came back I’d be saying “thank you” inwardly and just want to hug him and hold him.

I knew he had to go or go mad. I knew I had to let him go. We said goodbye. And…you know I knew this was it. Not like all the other times. This was it. It was about the hardest thing I ever had to do…you know not to just hold on and cry and say “please don’t go baby.” I actually don’t know how I did it. As soon as he’d gone…I…I didn’t know how I’d done it. And that was it…

[how did his wife feel about it?]

I don’t know. I was 3000 miles away. I don’t really know anything about how he was from the moment he walked out my door for the last time. Ouida was happy to see him put the distance between us I think. But she was a Hollywood person. She liked being a Hollywood wife. And I don’t think she would have liked her endless money supply drying up.[laughs] So I don’t know how that went.

[didn’t you have mutual friends who could…you might have heard from]

We had mutual friends but almost none of them knew about us, at least not openly. So you know I couldn’t ask for some detailed breakdown of his private life. [laughs] I got to know Karloff quite well later on, and he was a crony…one of the undesirable chums. I [worked with] him a few time, and… he’d…and he’d talk about Basil sometimes…. Tell me he’d seen him, you know just talk, but not so that I would really know. Really know how things were. He didn’t like Ouida… but…none of the undesirables liked Ouida. Vincent didn’t really start talking to me until after Basil was gone. And it turned out Basil had told him about me…but by then he was dead.

[what about the Bruces?]

He…he…Basil pretty much closed that friendship.…They were so close, but he…because you know it was a connection with me…because we both loved them…and it would be a way back. So he ended the friendship. But…and that hurt Willie a lot. I didn’t know what to say to them. It was a very sad thing to see.

[how long did it take to get over losing him?]

A long time. It was a long shadow. I missed him. I missed him in my life every day. Always. You make what you can and you live your life…I missed him…I missed me…the person I was…that aspect of me that went when he went. I didn’t want to see anyone, I was… I remember thinking “ok this is the rest of your life.” And you know just a few months after he left my dog, […] died. And…and she’d been..I’d always thought of her as our dog. She loved Basil. We…we missed him together. She’d snuggle up to me. And comfort me. And then she was gone too.

I just remember feeling cold all the time. Inside and out. Cold. It felt like London in winter. One of the worst times of my life. He said “live your life, be happy.” But I didn’t really do that very well. I was so worried about him, I missed him so much…I was pretty wretched really. I … pretty much wanted to die a lot of the time.… [laughs]. I’d go to my beach house whenever I could. It was…it was the place I associated with our happiest times and it made me feel a bit better. I didn’t want a man, I didn’t want anything to be asked of me by anyone. I used to spend a lot of time alone. Just sitting and thinking. I used to go sailing sometimes with my girlfriends. That was just heavenly. Just escape. I loved the sea.

[eventually, a few years later you married Bernardo]

I suppose I gravitated to other lost people, people who were grieving. David Niven who…you know was mourning Primmie [his wife]…Errol, Gable, Bobby Walker.

[you dated Clark Gable]

Barely. It wasn’t about anything like that really. He was…his life was wrecked [due to his wife’s death]…we kept each other company a while.

[why did you marry Bernardo?]

Bernie was…he was…. We were both drifting and we thought maybe we could be a salvation or a refuge for each other.

[were you happy?]

Well he was screwing [NAME REDACTED] a year after we married honey, so what do you think?


But we gave it a try and stayed friends after [NAME REDACTED] took him on.

[and then Giovanni]

Giovanni…oh God…I got married to Giovanni because I was pregnant. I knew it was a mistake. He was pissed off and I felt like a teenager in trouble. He thought I’d done it on purpose. He was convinced I wanted to trap him into marriage. But why the hell would I? I wasn’t supposed to be able to get pregnant. You know… my tubes were shot. They told me I’d never conceive. I thought Juliet was stomach flu for three weeks. And…and when I knew I was pregnant Giovanni said, “are you going to see to it?” And I said, “I’ve wanted to have a kid for ten years, so no.” And he said, “Ok, so I guess we have to get married.” It was [the 1950s]…you didn’t have the option of being an unwed mother in Hollywood if you wanted to work. So… … So, I went to Reno and got a divorce and married Giovanni. You can tell I was going for class at this period in my life. Reno and Giovanni. Throw in a rhinestone tiara and a drag queen and we have a full set.


[did you love each other?]

Giovanni…Oh God…he was…you know we weren’t even really exclusive. He was fun…we had some good times…. But in a lot of ways it was twenty-year long one night stand. We had not much in common beside drink and sex. […]

[did you regret not having a child before?]

…I’d been pregnant in ‘42…but….

[oh really? by David?]

Not unless he was mailing donations to me.

[oh by Basil]

I was a few days late and crying all the time even more than usual back then, and he said “X, I think you’re pregnant.” After another week I knew he was right. It was Christmas Eve I had it confirmed. I was six weeks pregnant. David was home…he was just about to go overseas, I was supposed to be giving him a nice send-off. I came in after I got the news and sat down by the fire and there were mince pies my mum had brought over..and I looked at them and had to run out to vomit. My mum came out into the bathroom and said “you’re knocked up aren’t you.” It was a perfect end to a perfect year.

[what did you do?]

…I was…part of me was…in that first moment of knowing, before reality hits. I was actually thrilled. Excited for a while. You have this…the life force is there and you have the feeling “we’ll manage somehow, it’s do-able somehow…” It was Christmas Eve, I was pregnant with our child. It felt right. But then you sit and you think…and…this was 1942. What could we do? I couldn’t openly have a baby with a man while we weren’t married. You know, that was…it proved you were having unmarried sex, so you couldn’t do that. You could…there were rigid codes back then. You could screw whomever you liked but you had to be able to deny it in public. If you’re ready to pop with Sherlock junior you can’t deny anything.


I was married to David who hadn’t slept with me since God knows when. Could I ask him to pass this kid off as his? I…God help me I thought about it…I sat down with him that…one of the last days he was home and…and I nearly asked him. I truly nearly asked him. But then…I thought “X he’s going to war, he’s going to be risking his life, he might die out there like so many others have already, and you’re going to ask this of him before he leaves? This is what you want him to take away?”

You know he probably would have said yes…because…because he was that decent and kind…but how the hell could I ask him? And there was Ouida…she would know it was her husband’s child I was carrying. It…you know, what the hell would she do? She’d wanted to have a child of her own for so long and now here he was fathering one on some other woman. It was only a year ago she’d taken all those pills…there…there really wasn’t any way.

[did Basil want the baby?]

Not like I did. You know it was growing in me. I was all sentimental and teary and imagining a little boy who’d grow up looking just like him. He…I think he wouldn’t let himself do anything like that because he knew it was impossible.

[what did you do?]

There was no choice. Only one thing to do. So I got pretty drunk over Christmas and January I went and had it all scraped out. I was making [NAME OF MOVIE] at the time and I was back at work next day. So I was running round the moors and stuff being [CHARACTER NAME REDACTED]and going off to cry in between takes. [NAME REDACTED] thought I was upset because of the sheep dog…for God’s sake.


it’s a long story. […] And it was just…oh the whole thing was a farce, but…She was in a different world from me. By then I couldn’t have cared if they’d given me a goldfish in a bowl.

[I get the impression this stayed with you?]

I knew girls who had five or more abortions and they just saw it like having a tooth filled. I guess it depends…. Around seven months later I used to wake up hearing a baby cry. I…And I always felt I knew it had been a boy. It would have been an August birth. He’d be a man now, with kids of his own. Round the time it was due I started…I was…I ached to have this little thing to hold in my arms. It was like physical pain. I’d see babies and…I’d just have to cuddle them. Fill this empty space with something baby-shaped and baby-smelling. I’d want to cry. That was why…it was one reason Basil felt he was keeping me from having a life…he…I wanted a baby so much but we couldn’t. We’d never be able to have a baby. And he’d say “you have to find a man who can give you children.” Only it was…he didn’t understand it was our child I wanted most. You know I wanted to have kids with him and raise them with him, not just…. And then years later I went to a gynecologist and he told me the termination had messed everything up and I’d probably never conceive. So that was ironic news. My one chance of motherhood had been flushed into a bucket January 1943.[laughs]

[And then there was Juliet]

Yes. A weird kind of miracle. Giovanni’s miracle baby. […]


[did you [and Basil] ever meet again?]

…I met him…about six, eight years down the line. I was married to Giovanni. He was back in Hollywood briefly. We had a civilized conversation. But you know we had to be…we could have been back in the midst of it in no time. So we weren’t going to be casual chums.

[so you never really maintained any contact?]

We didn’t talk often. If… if there was a crisis or…for example when my mum …when she died…he…we…he called me. Just to…just to talk and pay respect to Mary. To make sure I was going to be ok.[…] But day in day out, no…no we didn’t…we weren’t in each other’s lives.

[you regret that very much don’t you]

You look back and think…twenty years we could have had. Even if we’d just been friends. The times I wanted to talk to him…share things with him. […] I wanted to be able to ask him things, talk things through…and… him to just tell me I was ok and doing ok. And he was never there for all those moments…he was…. And I was never there in his life. And I knew he wanted me sometimes. I just knew. We were still involved. Even when we didn’t talk for months or years. Even when the… … We were just…. Involved with each other. I knew. The day he died. I suddenly had the feeling he was there. Such a weird overwhelming feeling he was there beside me. I could…I had that feeling of…being…I don’t know…protected…loved I always had when he was there. Just the feeling I associate with him. It was so strong I actually looked up, as if I expected to see him. And I knew. Right then. He’d gone. I’d never see him again. And later that day I heard…


[how would you describe that relationship?]

With Basil? Oh…you’d have to say it was a disaster really. I mean I think you could count the genuinely completely happy days on one hand… But we enjoyed each other and we understood each other.… Even when things were awful we had…moments. Just…after my father died we went to the beach house…it was just him and me and my dog. I just spent the week just…sleeping and resting and…. He knew to let me have the time. When I wanted to be held he’d hold me. When I wanted to be left he’d just know to leave me, he’d take my dog out for long walks down the beach, give me space. When I wanted to talk he’d listen. Evenings I’d just lie by the fire, listen to Mozart, the Requiem and The Magic Flute or he’d read to me, and…it was…heaven, and…it helped me so much. It gave me my strength back. And that was because it was him. We knew each other so well by instinct, we could just be. And…when it was good it was……and it could have been ok if things had been different. I think we could…I think we could have given it a try.

[would you have married him if you could?]

Yes. Yes, I would. He asked me to go to England with him, when Ouida initially said she’d divorce him, and we were going to be married as soon as we could. David said “darling, I promise I won’t stand in your way, and I won’t drag your name through the dirt.” He was a hero about it. But Ouida did what she did…and so…

[would you have made a go of it?]

I don’t know…I don’t think we’d have done any worse together than apart…. I’d have liked the chance to try anyhow. I think the person I was when was with him was worth a lot more than…. You know people are catalysts for each other. I liked what I was with him. …maybe there would have been less booze and pills. Maybe he wouldn’t have been so broke and so played out…maybe…I don’t know.





  1. rosebette says

    I believe that Basil’s relationship with Ouida was a complex one. When he met her in the 20s, he appeared to be a confident, successful actor, but as he admitted to X in one of the letters posted on this blog, he went through periods of feeling lost and despairing. Many of us on this site have discussed Basil’s possibly suffering from PTSD after his WWI experiences and the loss of his brother (and his mother while he was away). In many ways, he may have been “drifting” emotionally in the 20s, and Ouida may have given him structure and stability. Possibly, he felt indebted to her for that. There are certainly aspects of a “codependent” relationship between them. Ouida was definitely not his ideal life partner, but I also wonder whether she was as horrific as we are seeing. Could she be completely devoid of any redeeming qualities? I don’t think I’d want my story and people’s perceptions to be based on the way I behaved at my worst moments. I don’t know how I’d sane I’d be if I found out that the man I chose as my life partner was having a serious affair with a woman half my age.

    Also, remember later on, there was a child in the mix — Cynthia — to whom he was attached, and he may have also been thinking of what was best for her. If Basil lost access to Cynthia, then ultimately the child would be in Ouida’s care; in his later years, Cynthia often traveled with B. on theater tours, etc. We might assume that he was “manning up” to this family responsible in a way that as a young father and returning WWI vet, he wasn’t able to do with his own son.

    While I don’t think Basil made the best decisions for himself, I cannot condemn him. We make decisions making what we know and feel at the time and don’t have the luxury of hindsight.

    Basil deserved what he got — he deserved to die in near- poverty making junky movies? I don’t think so. That’s like saying that he deserved to die of a heart attack because he was a smoker.


    • Much as I sympathize with Basil I think I have to admit Armand has a point and one we need to remember. Basil was the author of a great deal of (but not all) his own unhappiness and would possibly have been the first to admit it. He practiced a strange and rare form of self-destruction. Tragic and infuriating and inexplicable to observe from the outside, like all self-destruction, but every bit as compulsive and impossible for him to control as alcohol or drug addiction, obsessive gambling, or any other manifestation of the uniquely human drive to immolate oneself.

      In harming himself he inevitably also harmed those he loved most. Did he have the right to do this? Absolutely not. Should he be blamed for letting himself be kept out of his son’s and grandchildren’s lives? Absolutely yes. It was wrong of him. But by this time I believe the man was already lost. Probably became inevitably lost as soon as he saw Ouida as some kind of answer.

      Did he believe she really might save him? or did he recognize her unique ability to help him wreck his own life?


    • Armand Ionesco says

      When I say he deserved what he got, I suppose what I meant was he so obviously went out of his way to get it. He asked for it might be more accurate than he deserved it. Yes I know there was a child in the mix, but that was his choice too. Like X said, why do that? Why go ahead and adopt a child with this woman? Did he not know what she was by this time?

      Was she as horrific as we are seeing? I dunno, I never met her, all we have is the evidence and it all points in one direction so far as I can see. Some people really are monsters. If she was psychopathic or narcissistic then she was a person without empathy or conscience which is pretty much as bad as it gets.

      As to the being insane because her husband was having an affair with a younger woman, I don’t think it’ a fair comparison to see that in terms of her being cheated on. She encouraged him to have affairs. She had no problem with him having sex with other women. What she was flipping out about wasn’t the fact he was having sex with another woman, it was the fact he might leave her and take the money tree with him.


  2. Armand Ionesco says

    Ok this is gonna be unpopular, but here goes. I’ll admit I’m male and immune to this man’s evident seductive charm, but he seems to me as a guy who drifted into easy options and never had the guts to stand up for anything he believed in or cared about. I’ve been reading all the fantastic biography material here and the amazingly smart and observant comments and I have just ended up thinking (excuse me) WTF?? Was he an idiot? By 1940-something he must have known Ouida was a crazy, selfish, possibly evil, bitch. He must have known she was not worth the efforts he was making for her. He must have known he was wasting life and his energy and _more important_ he was messing with and wrecking other people’s lives, who were worth a lot more than Ouida. But he just sacrificed himself and all these other people to this ghastly undeserving woman. The way I see it, it was his right to waste his own life, but his son and grandkids? No! He had a duty to put them before anyone, even a loving wife. Putting Ouida before them was not just crazy it was feckless and irresponsible. And it looks like he did the same thing to Madame X and maybe to Eva Le Gallienne. Dumping these two lovely, beautiful, talented women who loved him unselfishly to keep this appalling, destructive, twisted relationship with Ouida alive.

    I think this was weakness and cowardice not bravery. He should have had the guts to stand up for what he knew was right and to stand by the people who needed him and who deserved him, but instead he chose to stick with the person who served his purposes and his apparent need to be told what to do and ordered around. He gave up on his own life and independence and in the end got what he deserved, in my humble view. I hope he realized it. I hope he looked at his life and saw he’d been the architect of his own disaster. And it could have been such a great life. Few of us ever get to be so blessed with looks, talent, intelligence and opportunity. He threw them all away to become the chew toy of a crazy lady who mae both him and herself into walking jokes.

    Good lord, did not realize I felt so passionately. This is what sitting up all night reading about Basil Rathbone’s agonizing and frustrating life will do to you. Sorry if it come over as a rant.


  3. Alyssia says

    The idea that Basil would ever have wanted to marry these deluded, tragic, uneducated person is laughable. He DID stay with her at her beach house once after she tried to end her life. It was then that he wrote that letter to Ouida.


    • As much as I hate to get into this silliness – Alyssia (if that IS your real name; I despise the anonymity online – people say whatever they like with little consequence of hurting others) what makes you say “uneducated”? Is that just a term you want to throw around to display your dislike for X? I believe Ouida was “uneducated” too, in that she did not attend college. Then again, most women didn’t attend college in the early 20th century, especially not actresses.


      • Just to clarify, I personally believe an education is available to all who desire it, regardless if it is done in college or not. Some of our greatest minds were self-taught. So, I wouldn’t refer to either Ouida or X as “uneducated.” In the original comment, it was used in a rather spiteful manner. I find it harsh to refer to someone as “uneducated” based on a very personal conversation she had with a friend. Nothing in X’s story smacks of being uneducated – she seems to be very well-spoken.


  4. Susan Guntag says

    Poor X. I have been watching the films she made around the time she was with Baz (if I’m right about her identity), including the one she made around the time she had the termination. She was lovely. Delicately beautiful and her intelligence and sensitivity show in her face. I think they would have been a perfect couple.


    • Frances Walker says

      I have been doing the same thing. I wonder if we are thinking of the same person? I believe you can see her change facially between 1946 and 1948. She seems to lose her youthful bloom so suddenly around then, even though she was under thirty. And she also made very few films in this period.


  5. Cinegeek says

    This is awesome. I feel so privileged, and everything make so much sense once you slot this into his life. Such a shame Druxman didn’t have this material when he was writing Rathbone’s biography. Is he considering a re-issue in light of it?


  6. Roberta says

    I almost can’t bear it ended like that. I want some closure for them. Like Margaret says. I wish they had at least kept in contact. Is there any information about Basil’s later relationships? If he and Ouida had that “arrangement” where he looked outside the marriage for sex, did that continue? Is anything known about his involvements while he was in New York in the 1940’s – 1960’s? Did he ever find any other kind of love, or was it just casual things? It must have been so hard for him to leave X. And so hard for her. I want to think there was a glimmer of warmth for both of them. At least Basil had Cynthia. But I can’t imagine continued life with Ouida was any kind of picnic.

    Comments not displaying on right is an awful nuisance. It’s hard to keep up with the discussion.


    • Perhaps he decided men were an easier option? Ouida might not have minded so much, and many bi men find they tend to form closer emotional attachments with women but turn to men for casual sex


  7. Margaret G says

    Emotionally drained is right. I actually cried. And I almost never cry. My dogs have come to sit by my chair to reassure me, and my husband thinks I’m being inexplicably hormonal. It’s gut wrenching. The way X makes light of her pain only makes the pain seem more searing. She missed him so. I only pray I never have to miss anyone like that. I really miss hearing Basil’s voice and his side of it. What were those post-X years like for him? How was it, living with Ouida? What was their home life like? Did she forgive him for what she saw as his betrayal? Did he find any other source of warmth and love to make life bearable?


  8. GRETCHEN says

    I’m SO emotionally drained, after reading this…… 😦

    How terribly SAD that the dog died after Basil left—probably of a broken heart.

    And, the pregnancy ending in abortion…oh, GOSH! It sickens me how she must have felt to allow Basil’s precious baby to die—the fact that they would’ve been married and parenting that VERY child together, if it hadn’t been for the selfish act of Ouida’s “suicide” attempt! (I personally DON’T want kids; but, if I had been carrying HIS baby, I’d have GLADLY kept it for the sake of our beautiful, selfless love having created its life.)

    I believe her daughter WAS a “miracle baby”, and that perhaps she was the reincarnated soul of “X’s” previous child…given back to her, by God (who KNEW how she’d mourned-over her mistake of letting the first one go).

    It sounds as though NONE of “X’s” marriages were as fulfilling for her sexually, emotionally OR spiritually, as her relationship with Basil had been. I can understand how if he and “X” had allowed themselves to become “close” as friends in later years, that they would eventually be involved again, as lovers…it must have hurt them both SO MUCH—the unspoken feelings, hopes and wishes they felt, EVERY time they saw each-other!

    It’s so WONDERFUL to know that Basil came to visit “X”, and say “goodbye” in his own way, after his death. Not only their bodies, but their SOULS, were connected and bound by the love they’d shared…and not time, NOR distance, kept them truly “separated” from one-another. One NEVER stops being “part-of” one’s beloved, even in death. Ouida couldn’t prevent them from being a couple, as MUCH as she’d tried, because true LOVE cannot be destroyed or ended—especially NOT by evil. 🙂


  9. I love Basil & X all the more for this. Thanks, Neve, for posting. Some people may not like it, but Basil and all of the players in that moment in time were human beings, and we are not infallible. NONE of us have perfect relationships. Sometimes we just have to take the happiness that we can, when we can, and I think they did.


    • Roberta says

      I absolutely agree.It’s so clear they cared for one another in a deep and unselfish way and I believe if they had been able to be together Basil’s life would have been very different, and hers too. He would not have been so depressed and so broke. He would not have walked out on Hollywood in such a disastrous way, which would have meant he didn’t make an enemy out of Lew Wasserman, which also would have meant he continued to be offered decent film work.

      He and X might have raised a family. He would have been happy and fulfilled at home. He might have been able at long last to combine both theatre and movies, the way Karloff and others did. She would not have ended up addicted to tranquilisers and unhappily married.

      So tragic. Thank you Neve for giving us this deeper picture of this wonderful man’s life. I hope the biography can do him as much justice.


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